Dave Petras, thats funny, I’m sure other mentors like Oliver North would also agree. Your mind only works in black or white, which is evidenced literally in other comment topics here. My thesis, My thesis,,,, nothing is absolute and yes dictators have proven selfish problems,,, but most of OUR involvements would never have happened if there was no profit in it from somewhere. Business profit is our ideological drive, our religion and it is ultimately more dangerous. Money interest and lobbies do control the state and that is why they have and have not been involved in invading or policing or humane atrocities EVERYWHERE even as we speak. THE STATE in today’s America is a gluttonous pawn. The reason we have at this time capitalist totalitarianism or any other that may spring from tomorrows revolution is because you can’t tell the difference from one or the other. Listen Kid, someday you will get over motherhood and apple pie, until then I can tell you one thing about yourself and that is you are not one of those who is profiting from this machine (in any way),, and perspective blogs and podiums are not earned through intelligent credentials. Remember this isn’t just the land of opportunity, it’s also the land of privileged idiots.

Read everything that I have given you so far,, over again, you will see that a lot of it is really not disputable, since it is, and comes from factual history, not my personal science fiction… thesis?

Iraq had everything to do with money, States were influenced by big oil (our state primarily), and their combined incomes of industrial profit and state taxes made off them, in a land where States don’t control business, business controls State.

That’s a lie. Big oil had precious little to do with the Iraq war. That thesis is thoroughly debunked by James Petras in this book.

“Contending that Zionist power in America ensured unconditional US backing for Israeli colonization of Palestine and its massive uprooting of Palestinians, it views the interests of Israel rather than those of Big Oil as the primary cause of the disastrous US wars against Iraq and threats of war against Iran and Syria.” https://www.amazon.com/POWER-ISRAEL-UNITED-STATES-Petras/dp/0932863515

It was a combination of the Israel lobby, Israel itself and Zionist neoconservatives in the Bush admin who engineered the war for geopolitical reasons, not business interests. You are coping to blame all wars on business when I have already given many examples of States engaging in wars for their own State interests.

You say if big business controlled congress then they would not have to lobby them,, hey, your destroying your own thesis! Why then would they lobby them with hundreds of millions (sum totals) to date if that is such a fruitless effort?

That proves my thesis that they don’t directly “control the state” because if they did, there would be no need to lobby. Lobbyists don’t always get what they want. There are lobbies for everything from feminists, LGBT, foreign countries, farmers, NGOs, religions, charities, labour unions and business. They all throw money around in the hopes politicians will listen, but they don’t always get what they hope for hence the need to keep lobbying until they do. I also gave you other examples of States suing private companies, which refutes the thesis that “big business” in general controls the State. What are they suing themselves?

Yes, Dictators of the past had a lust for glory and immortality,, some simply self enrichment,, But I believe that Mussolini, Bonaparte, and many emporers of the earlier period along with many famous American presidents which deplored financial power in few hands

So you’ve admitted again that your thesis is wrong. You claimed all wars are started for business interests then you admit these politicians like Mussolini, Hitler and Roosevelt were opposed to business interests and still went to war aggressively. There are examples of States being influenced to make war or do coups for business interests, but there are just as many examples of States doing that for State interests. Should we abolish the state then since they are aggressive and make war? Truth is that even when you nationalize all companies, States then become the monopoly economic power who act as one giant corporation and will act according to its own desire for more land, resources and power. Eliminating markets will not end war, that’s a fact.

Your smarter than that, but for the sake of your readers I will do the basic math for you;
I debunked my own thesis? The greatest wars in history are within nations and within people themselves. not outside, its not all good or simply evil,, its not all Republican or Democrat, them versus US that are the nasty cause of all our problems, they both (sides) exist and continue the conflict. Greed which now reins at its highest in its historical sums, by the power of money influence and manipulation, is something mankind may not survive (if not through war, wealth divides, then with the direction of our ecology). Iraq had everything to do with money, States were influenced by big oil (our state primarily), and their combined incomes of industrial profit and state taxes made off them, in a land where States don’t control business, business controls State. You say if big business controlled congress then they would not have to lobby them,, hey, your destroying your own thesis! Why then would they lobby them with hundreds of millions (sum totals) to date if that is such a fruitless effort? Italian capitalist presidents were smarter in 1920, they had seats directly in Gialitti’ Parliament and voted laws in place directly without the shameful public lobbies which go on daily within the halls of Congress here (another measure of public ignorance and passivity). Mussolini threw them out after he took power and sent them back to manage Industry where they belonged. When I was a representative in my Federal Agency I witnessed 1st hand corporate influence in our regulatory system which further endangered our citizens. Unlike the daily lobby pool in congress, I was constantly monitored in several ways for any violation of “conflict of interest” with a penalty of position loss and or fine and incarceration.

You say — ”I don’t disagree that we should prevent businesses from influencing the State (they must compete fairly in the market), but I totally disagree that States are benevolent actors who wouldn’t do anything wrong if not for businesses making them do it.” —They are not benevolent actors! Especially in our present system of government where not just business but money makes them do so. Our 2 party system (which is only one party more than nasty dictatorship) competes to be the oligarchies better tool of choice to keep their office and income,, both working for the same masters.

I’m glad you agree that big corporates should not monopolize markets, but they do and more and more classes of people like ourselves are prevented from being a part of this market as time passes. As for the other market (the stock market) it has been slowly undermined to the point of the peoples investment (25%?) becoming a house of cards.

Yes, Dictators of the past had a lust for glory and immortality,, some simply self enrichment,, But I believe that Mussolini, Bonaparte, and many emporers of the earlier period along with many famous American presidents which deplored financial power in few hands did prove their efforts for justice and balance for the benefit of all to a greater degree than todays present recipe of uncontrolled forces. The books I read, many old publications are not waved around in your daily internet garbage (which is what a lot of it is), and people today do not go beyond it for further research.

As for Facebook, They’re small potatoes, the power to manipulate internet dangerously and sloppy on an ignorant society is why it was attacked as should most US media conglomerates (I believe fox is suffering the same fly’s bite on an elephants ass right now) and yes it is also law suits than rain in MORE money for THIS state, not us. Socialist style people activism is growing which is why the companies you identified are being targeted and as you stated AND more in the EU. French media displays false internet stories gone viral on a daily basis claiming the internet is now a poison well, or as I would say a growing cesspool.

Forgive me for piece-mealing responses but I want to cover all your information;
Before we got to Ukraine we broke NATO accords and filled in all those post Warsaw Pact nations with tons of American rearmament contracts (another industry?) which most of you have no conception of along with our own bases.
Geopolitical response in order to protect Israel? who protected the Palestinians in the last 70 years? The takeover of that territory was no Louisiana Purchase which started that Hatfield – McCoy feud, What, no money in seeing justice there?? or in Rwanda during that genocide, like 50 other places for or against our involvement? We walk on a dangerously thin line. Authoritarianism can be very dangerous I agree, but we need a benevolent traditional patriarch right now more than ever and only because whats in control now under the false name of self government and democracy just doesn’t work, because it just doesn’t exist.
There is a short time factor before we hit the wall as passengers of a deliberate drunken system of politics on both sides especially since 1980.

Theodore Roosevelt was a great man who at times realized injustice and fought against it as he did with JP Morgan and other conglomerates of finance when he battled their monopolization of business, finance and power. Unfortunately like Mussolini and many of the men of his time, he believed in war as a symbol and expression of true manhood. His lust for war was considered by some of his political contemporaries verging on the border of insanity.

So this disproves your own thesis. First you said all wars are caused by private companies forcing States to engage in war, but here you say Roosevelt fought against big business and STILL went to war and had a lust for war. So it wasn’t companies making him go to war, it was his own ambition.

Same with Mussolini. You say Mussolini reigned in all the businesses and wasn’t controlled by them, yet he still initiated various wars and had a lust for it. So you’ve debunked your own thesis that capitalism and greed causes all wars.

The Soviet Union eliminated private enterprise entirely, yet the USSR initiated multiple wars (against Poland, Finland, Afghanistan, etc.).

Hitler too had a lust for war for geopolitical reasons. When the State takes over most private enterprise, it becomes the sole economic actor and must pursue “profit” in a similar way that a private company would, in order to increase its own market share in the world as a State. That’s why Hitler invaded Russia, to gain control of its oil reserves and land (for Lebensraum). He invaded Poland to increase his land-mass.

Many wars today, like the Iraq war and the Ukraine war, had little to do with business and much more to do with geopolitics (protecting Israel in the case of Iraq, & overthrowing a Russia-skeptical gov in Ukraine in Putin’s case). That’s not the fault of business, that’s the fault of States and their ambitions. Certain businesses profit from wars, but that doesn’t mean they caused the wars, they’re just taking advantage of the niche markets created by the States who initiate war. States profit handsomely from wars too (they win more land-mass & can suck up the resources in the newly acquired territory). Even if they later privatize the new conquered resources, the State still benefits from collecting taxes on it.

I don’t disagree that we should prevent businesses from influencing the State (they must compete fairly in the market), but I totally disagree that States are benevolent actors who wouldn’t do anything wrong if not for businesses making them do it. That’s totally disproven by the examples of USSR, Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany and even Roosevelt’s USA, who you admit were not beholden to any business interests yet were some of the most aggressive war-making States in modern times.

Today’s wars are not between eastern communist versus western democracies,,,, you see neither exist. Today’s wars are between wealthy, greedy oligarchs (Capitalists) who control congress. They don’t have to raise private armies, they already dictate orders to your existing national ones.

That’s a mighty assumption buddy. Which companies control congress? Major companies are not a united front, they’re competitors with each other, so that’s a blanket statement. And if that were true, then why is Congress hauling people like Zuckerberg, Bezos and the oil executives in front on congress to threaten them with regulations and higher taxes? The FBI went to Zuck to demand he censor certain posts. That’s the State controlling business not the reverse.

“Mark Zuckerberg says Facebook restricting a story about Joe Biden’s son during the 2020 election was based on FBI misinformation warnings.”
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-62688532

Here’s a story of how France embedded regulators at Facebook to force them to censor stuff:
“Facebook will allow French regulators to “embed” inside the company to examine how it combats online hate speech, the first time the wary tech giant has opened its doors in such a way, President Emmanuel Macron said on Monday.” https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-facebook-macron/france-to-embed-regulators-at-facebook-to-combat-hate-speech-idUSKCN1NH1UK

Here’s another example that disproves you:
“In 2020, the Justice Department filed a civil antitrust suit against Google for monopolizing search and search advertising, which are different markets from the digital advertising technology markets at issue in the lawsuit filed today. The Google search litigation is scheduled for trial in September 2023.”
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-sues-google-monopolizing-digital-advertising-technologies#:~:text=In%202020%2C%20the%20Justice%20Department,for%20trial%20in%20September%202023.

The EU also fined google for breach of anti-trust:
“The European Commission has fined Google €2.42 billion for breaching EU antitrust rules. Google has abused its market dominance as a search engine by giving an illegal advantage to another Google product, its comparison shopping service.”
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/es/MEMO_17_1785

Here’s another:
“The US Department of Justice filed a civil suit against Activision Blizzard today, accusing the publisher of violating the Sherman Antitrust Act with Overwatch League and Call of Duty League rules that kept player salaries down.” https://www.gamesindustry.biz/activision-blizzard-sued-by-us-government-over-esports-salaries

Biden is proposing tax bumps on the rich:
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/09/president-bidens-proposed-2024-budget-calls-for-top-39point6percent-tax-rate.html

So if the US government (& EU) is regulating and suing big companies, then the big companies obviously don’t control them. If they did, then they’d just squash all taxes tomorrow and pay nothing. If the US gov was controlled by one big company, then they’d use the gov to squash their competitors, but we haven’t quite seen that yet.

If the big companies already controlled congress, they wouldn’t need to spend millions on lobbying would they? Why would they lobby something they already control?

The difference of modern capitalism in America and that in fascist Italy was “that the fascist government controlled capitalism” and not the other way around. The fact that so much confusion continues to exist in understanding political ideologies is remarkable. All the western anti-fascist, and all the great anti-fascist Marxist (as opposed to the pro-fascist Marxist) would redefine fascisms characterization continuously during its years as a government and after. I know you don’t like hearing that our nation adopted fascism in the 1930’s, But all I can do is keep reminding you.

You say — Even in this case, it was the State that made the war happen. Private companies can’t make war happen on their own, unless they somehow raise etc. etc……. Really??? Today’s wars are not between eastern communist versus western democracies,,,, you see neither exist. Today’s wars are between wealthy, greedy oligarchs (Capitalists) who control congress. They don’t have to raise private armies, they already dictate orders to your existing national ones.
As for war and barbarism, a term coined in ancient Italy, allow me to provide you with the following; (This is only a micro sample to wet your memory)

Theodore Roosevelt was a great man who at times realized injustice and fought against it as he did with JP Morgan and other conglomerates of finance when he battled their monopolization of business, finance and power. Unfortunately like Mussolini and many of the men of his time, he believed in war as a symbol and expression of true manhood. His lust for war was considered by some of his political contemporaries verging on the border of insanity. He is also to blame for advocating an unjust war against Spain, or the “Spanish American War”. Immigration also spurned his beliefs in Eugenics.

On Woodrow Wilson;
It is difficult to weigh all the individual nation’s reasons for participating in the First World War, but ours was perhaps the most despicable. After promising the people that America would remain neutral if elected, Wilson would declare war to assure allied victory for his BANKERS INDUSTRIES who invested or lent the English and French over 2 billion dollars, which would be lost if Germany won the war especially after the collapse of Russia and the eastern front. He appointed George Creel to head an agency which created the first propaganda machine in America to sell the war to the American people (taking a lesson on the growing power of “manipulation through press” from William Randolph Hearst). When potential volunteers were not sold on the reason for his change of mind, he drafted them and imposed his new Espionage Act of 1917 on any protesters with a 20 year imprisonment which commenced conveniently with labor movement leaders who were already under his violent attacks, these attacks or actions violating the “Posse Comitatus Act” in using troops against striking workers or citizens also during his time in office.

It is now a known fact that munitions were secretly loaded on a civilian transport cruise liner which was then directed into a war zone despite being warned by the German government to avoid those waters on the grounds that they would be entering a war zone at great risk. One of these ships being the Lusitania whose sinking cost many civilian lives and whose lives were used unknown to them and their families, not only for ferrying munitions, but as the sacrifice and excuse for entering the war.
“It is most important to attract neutral shipping to our shores in the hope of embroiling the United States with Germany,” –Winston Churchill.
Wilson’s General (Pershing) was also one of the dozen generals also present in the Philippines during the previous Spanish American War where an estimated 1.4 million people were killed in an American driven genocide after taking over the colony from Spain. Under orders of one “General Jacob Smith” after the Philippine rebellion, all men as young as 10 years of age were ordered to be killed.

Unlike in Italy during the fascist era and uncharacteristic of what we were taught, the practiced incarceration of a targeted race, in this case “Japanese Americans” in several quickly constructed prison camps for simply being of Japanese descent within the United States was nothing less than “ethnic concentration camps on U.S. soil”, (at least ten camps spanning several states). Despite being without question the greatest president of the 20th century, FDR was also able to make the most basic of human mistakes, “allowing the inhuman act of persecuting innocent people out of fear”, “We have nothing to fear… but fear itself”. Apart from the incarceration of over a hundred thousand people, there is the [then estimated] value of hundreds of millions of dollars in confiscated and unreturned property and assets which they lost, some estimates close to a billion $. Stores, businesses, farms were singled out and shut down, merchandise, real estate, private homes, personal household goods were confiscated, stolen and sold while the fever pitch of hate escalated with the help of Randolph Hearst’s Press which continued to run high during and after the war. These folks returned to their homes to find nothing but contempt. And it seems that in their cultural Asian tradition or heritage of pride, humbleness, honor and shame, they had never petitioned or protested publicly in humiliation the demand to rectify the injustices committed on them as so many other ethnic, or other groups have done. This seemingly went uncontested by any officials of either party.

Then there is the question of our alliance with Stalin, who collaborated the simultaneous invasion of Poland with Hitler [Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact]. The straw which broke the camel’s back was the invasion of Poland which prompt-ed the Allies declaration of the Second World War, but the allies only declared war on one invader. No one seems to really discuss or even think about the fact that when the German Wehrmacht crossed the Polish western border, Russia in collaboration did the same, (seventeen days earlier) crossing the eastern border of Poland. Despite Russia’s identical violation of this sovereign republic, nothing was said by the allies and no war was declared on Russia. In essence, the invasion of western Poland was used to declare war on its German invader, but its eastern half was quietly sacrificed to Stalin, our new ally. Eastern and Western Europe would continue to remain under occupation for decades to follow, under these respective emerging super victors.
Not to ignore the many other atrocities committed on human beings to include British Gulags in Kenya, 700,000 dead Iraqis for weapons of mass hallucination, (Oil companies had no influence whatsoever, just the evil State),,, Men in white hoods, american indian genocide and land take over, I can go on but I won’t)

Let me just say that some eastern societies are driven by socialist ideals, some middle eastern by religious ideologies,, and then there is US — profit ideologists who would sell their grandmothers for a dollar. Which is the superior society? Mussolini was a saint compared to the murderer’s spawned on our blessed soil, The only thing that has saved us despite our actions has been unlimited finance through unlimited resources, (that’s it) but that is now also changing.

Indeed yes the state must be reigned in. This was the essential difference between NS and communism.

The state was not reigned in under NS, it was a pure Totalitarian State where one man, the Fuhrer, made all executive decisions.

Your quotes about Hitler wanting to take over all industry and eliminate classes are indeed fascinating but Hitler changed his mind all the time.

There’s no reason to believe he changed his mind on this since it was stated in 1943, two years before he shot himself.

Fundamentally he was nationalist, which is a third position, not a schizo position. The third way is the only proven way for nations to rise from poverty.

He was an imperialist/expansionist (Lebensraum), which is the antithesis of nationalism because it requires negating/subjugating other nations.

Also, IT WAS private business which incited the murder of WELL over 200 million in the last 300 years and throughout history. In England for example, it was guided by the financial hand of the East India Company, which incited war globally for economic control and in return it offered much less than Bonaparte to European society.

Even in this case, it was the State that made the war happen. Private companies can’t make war happen on their own, unless they somehow raise a private army to make the war which have hardly seen anywhere. Even when all the companies are nationalized, States then become the economic actors who desire resources, living space, etc. If eliminating capitalism made war go away, then explain why Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and the Soviet Union were some of the most aggressive States in the world, initiating war and conquest at every turn.

“Capitalism has borne the monstrous burden of war and today still has the strength to shoulder the burdens of peace”. -Mussolini

Said the guy who invaded 10 countries. Mussolini was extremely pro-war. He supported World War I and gleefully entered World War II. War is a key part of fascist doctrine.
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/world-war-ii/10-countries-invaded-fascist-italy-invaded-one.html?chrome=1

Thank you, for your response, I do appreciate discussion and believe it necessary. First I believe in Patriarchy. Our fathers provided us much in their Authoritarian position. That said,
Yes, I do believe the state must be reined in, and to an extent be controlled,,, But only by an intelligent people (as Franklin hinted at the steps of the capital?), unfortunately we now suffer from intellectual depravity and our numbers have swelled, as our polarized temperament.

Also, IT WAS private business which incited the murder of WELL over 200 million in the last 300 years and throughout history. In England for example, it was guided by the financial hand of the East India Company, which incited war globally for economic control and in return it offered much less than Bonaparte to European society. Wars are brutally inhumane but it takes 2 to tango and the causes are always obscure by those who approve history books to those who sign treaties like that of Versailles or the Ohio Valley regarding Indian territory. (Part of our Statecraft polity)

If I may quote from my last read; (Reflection by J. Guzziferno)
“Incredibly during the Roman Republic, the senate gave appointed generals dictatorial powers to deal with emergencies realizing the need to overcome disunity, debate, and worse – procrastination. This appointment was only for the duration of the problem or threat. (Unlike today, the men selected were not idiots (primarily) driven by the self-profit by all involved, and when unsustainable senatorial greed finally prevailed after 200 years, Imperialism stepped in permanently)

“Capitalism has borne the monstrous burden of war and today still has the strength to shoulder the burdens of peace”. -Mussolini —- (that is controlled capitalism)

“I do not intend to defend capitalism or capitalists. They, like everything human, have their defects. I only say their possibilities of usefulness are not ended.”-Mussolini

“Democracy is a regime nominally without a King, but it is ruled by many kings — more absolute, tyrannical and ruinous than one sole king, even though a tyrant”- Mussolini
(oligarchs without a face unlike wall postered authoritarians)

“China’s rapid success can be attributed to the fact that it dropped the old communist philosophy of “all ownership” which hamstrung all Eurasia in the last century. China now practices a system which follows “corporatism” in the way of certain authoritarian governments of the past. They have not only nationalized industries affecting national security, but now allowed increased privatization which allows private ownership and independent professional management to operate progressively while maintaining overall state control and oversight in their direction and balance. Their rapid success is also a product of baiting (low [overhead labor & controlled material] cost / greater profit) and allowing completely developed foreign industries and their technology to simply enter their fold, which they now control (possession being nine tenths of the law). Something our free enterprise principle allowed and something they would never allow.

FDR’s New Deal and especially its NRA are fascism re-labeled, as is every program within it which we (99% of us) still benefit from today, before it is slowly eliminated, which forces of finance have been slowly eroding under our noses in the last 6 decades using legislature they now own.

A lot to think about, Thank you

Indeed. Collectiviation created famines. Capitalism created all kinds of other ongoing problems. That these problems existed is evident in the fact that socialism became necessary in the wake of industrialisation where people could no longer simply grow their own in the event some capital project didn’t work out. Indeed yes the state must be reigned in. This was the essential difference between NS and communism. The truth of NS was subsequently born in later years in China and Russia. Your quotes about Hitler wanting to take over all industry and eliminate classes are indeed fascinating but Hitler changed his mind all the time. He was a pragmatist first and foremost. Today’s real nazis easily acknowledge that Hitler admitted that he would have called his party the liberal party at one point. Fundamentally he was nationalist, which is a third position, not a schizo position. The third way is the only proven way for nations to rise from poverty. All the best.